Matt & Saye

Posted by saye on Tuesday, May 4, 2010

Matt & Saye

Welcome to our new Matt & Saye Segment. With all the problems of this world, we advocate for more civil debate and less hate. We’ll debate while you decide.

Matt: I believe that if we follow the mantra of less government (and I mean destroying Fed Government that does not work i.e. Dept of Education, IRS, etc.), less taxes or a fair flat tax, less spending on entitlements and other bogus programs that we can have a better America. I am a believer that if America does those things, that in the long run, ALL AMERICANS will have better lives including blacks and Hispanics. The fallacy that many on the left, including you, believe is that all of the ides mentioned above, means that we are taking away from the poor. This is not true. The poor do not pay taxes any way.

Saye: To assume that all Americans would want to live like you, need to live like you, or would enjoy a world of conservative republican policies shows that you are living in a dream world. People have always wanted to separate from what they didn’t like and to try to form a nation based on personal values and principals. Isn't that what your forefathers did? If you have values that you like, you formulate under those values. Anything else would offend you and make you unhappy. Even the forefathers were torn among each other…Federalist hated the politics of Republican-Democrats and vice verse. The Confederacy fought a war against the Union to separate based on a lot of issues.

Matt: Ha. The point you don’t get is that blacks and others would not be unhappy living in that type of society in the long run. When the economy is not handcuffed and people have more money to spend, we all benefit. In your world, the only way blacks and Hispanics can make it is by government intervention and handouts. Again, you could not know any better because there is no facts or history to show you what a super majority in all chambers of Republicans could do. There is a right and wrong in this day and age. Less government is good, less taxes is good...ts only the people that have allowed themselves to be dependent on government that needs to change. They will not change unless elections and new laws force it on them. They may not like it but I bet it would benefit them in the long run. A little tough love wont hurt the dependent state (blacks, whites, etc.)

Saye: Matt, I have no clue what you are talking about.
It is ignorant to assume that your values and way of living is best for everyone in society. All whites do not embrace your values so what makes you think all blacks would be unhappy without it? Just like any other race, Blacks are humans and don't share all the same values and views of living. Some blacks love conservative republican capitalist living and would be happy living in such a society...others African Americans as well as Whites, Hispanics, Asians and many other races would prefer to live in a different society embracing different principals and values. Many Native societies have no desire for American culture and standard's of living. Some people only use resources on a need by need bases. They don't believe in capitalist principals and they love how they live and who they are as individuals. Most Racist feel they are superior and their way of living is superior to the rest. It is hard for them to comprehend when others have different values and beliefs then themselves. Never in this world has one political way of living been beneficial to all and made everyone happy. That is why we have different Nations with different values and different rules and laws, which guide them as a society.

Matt: I am not talking about values; I’m talking about policies. This is not about race. Blacks have been in despair because they continue supporting a failed dependent system. If they would give a conservative approach a chance, they IMO would benefit. What do they have to lose? Nothing. Again, super majority in all chambers, be real on conservative financial principles, and watch and see the economy boom from the handcuffs being taken off blacks…along with all others will benefit. I am sorry but 90% of minorities continue to vote for Liberals and it hasn’t gotten blacks as a whole anywhere. It is time for change…real change with no dependent states.

Saye: Matt, OMG those socialist commies are dangerous to America because they know they have the right to bare arms and protect themselves against police brutality. They are promoting socialist propaganda and organizing successful social programs. We have to stop them and Martin Luther King!!! (Crazy how both King and the Black Panther Party were considered communist and attacked by the government, even though they used different strategies to fight their oppressive state. The danger of socialism is one of the biggest lies in the world. It’s just a matter of opinion and values…plain and simple. The problem is when others force their values and opinions on you, it becomes a problem worth fighting for and the talk gets louder and louder…eventually leading to action, if enough people are willing to act on it. What's good and bad to individuals when it comes to political policies is all in the individual’s values and personal outlook at life. Like I told you before, George Washington took an Army of 10,000 to stop the Whiskey rebellions which were nothing more then small farmers who felt they were being taxed to high by the new American Government created by your forefathers. History has already told this tale before many times. Whiskey Rebellion

Matt: Socialism is a failure and has never been successful...FACT!

Saye: Capitalism is a failure and has never been successful...FACT (but really an opinion just like your claim was) Now What? Remember, ones perception of something may be totally different then another individual (with both realities being true) You read my blog
It goes from debate, then proof of argument, and will eventually lead to personal opinion. It's all based on how one defines successful... Once my definition does not match your definition ...there is no conclusive matter on the issue. So Like I said...It is based on ones values and what one likes. That is why I said the only way to solve such an issue is for individuals to live in a society in which they value the policies and the laws. They will be unhappy living under any other circumstance. In my opinion, I have never seen a true capitalist or socialist society in my life I would however like to live in a society with a good mixture of both, done fairly without corruption and elitist control and manipulation) My views on American Society

Matt: Well, you would be wrong since the US is the greatest economy the world has over the long term. Your opinions on why it is not successful are flawed. Of course, the more government involvement means it’s not a true capitalistic society we live in. If it were, we would ALL prosper. Your crony capitalism blog was weak and should have been intertwined with your gray area blog, because you have to allow capitalism to have freedom, and since we have had a hard time getting a filibuster proof capitalistic congress and President, you are not looking at the meaning of capitalism. What we DO know is there have been many, many socialistic societies that have had filibuster proof leaders to actually instill socialism and every time, it HAS FAILED!

Saye: In your opinion and your tunnel vision reality, I was wrong. What you fail to realize is that I do not measure success and failure based on wealth, money and power alone. I also measure how the money, wealth and power are obtained. I do not praise drug dealers for being rich so why would I praise a system of government which foundation was based on segregation, unjust laws, free slave labor and the genocide of millions of humans. Why would I embrace a wealthy nation that has built it’s wealth from inhumane social monopolies and political policies, imperialism, slavery, American apartheid and many other atrocities that continue to hurt her own citizens as well as millions of people around the world. I understand that many have achieved and prospered in the US so called Capitalist system, and that America has been an economic giant for a long time, but for me to conclude that capitalism is successful based on it’s economic success, is foolish in my opinion, and is based on a limited outlook. My values have taught me that morality is not based on who has the most power and the most money. My values also have allowed me to weed through propaganda vs reality. Why would I praise a document and tell people that it was the greatest document ever written (the US Constitution) when Poor white men, Poor white women, Black women, Black men, Native American women, and Native American men were considered as mere subjects, and for people of color, mere objects and property, in which they could not vote. None of the laws for people of color stood any ground until 1964, after millions of people from all races died fighting for America to change it’s hideous wrongs and racial genocidal actions. Things have improved and I love all the individuals who contributed to change this great nation in which I love, but I will by no means say that American Capitalism is a successful mechanism because America has never demonstrated a true form of Capitalism based on the definitions of capitalism in which I have read. I can’t call something successful if I don’t think it has ever truly existed. You can’t have a true capitalist system if your governmental policies embrace slavery, JIM CROW and flat out discriminatory actions towards people based on race and gender. I’ve told you before, how you define words like success and failure and what your values are, as an individual will shape how you look at the world and how you form opinions on issues.

Matt: One day you will have to get over the past and look at building a future without the excuses of those men old white men who formed our Constitution. I mean there is NOTHING holding you back from being anything you want. Can you say the same thing about other countries? It’s been 45 years since the Civil Rights Act of 1964.... it is time to quit with the excuses and to start HARD WORK!!

Saye: The definition of an excuse is “To apologize for (oneself) for an act that could cause offense:” I wasn’t apologizing for anything so your comment is out of context as to why I mentioned America’s shameful past. I presented a fact that was needed to show a clear picture of the history of perceived capitalism in America because you were under the assumption that America economy was based on some form of capitalist success. I simply explained that one couldn’t claim to run a capitalist system if the system foundation was based on the foundations in which I presented to you. It was perfectly normal to evaluate the foundation of the country’s history in order to determine its foundation in the concept of America’s capitalistic policies, to determine if capitalism existed in it’s true form (based off how many have come to define capitalism).. Not once did I need to apologize for anything during the process because my objective was to respond on rather or not capitalism was successful or not. I also find it very interesting, the very movement you support is called the TEA Party Movement (based on historical actions that took place a long long time ago as you would suggest: Some people say that racist whites are just using excuses to complain about progressive minority success in modern day America, which were all gained through a democratic system. But I am sure they have taken the argument of many of the tea party protestors out of context…just maybe. If you really think government policies didn’t hinder people, why do you support the tea party movement? Why don’t you go and tell your friends who support the tea party movement and that NOTHING is holding them back from being anything they want. Matt, people will always embrace their values and long to live in a society in which their values and concept of a better world are appreciated and put into practice. People will also evaluate the present with the past to determine if where they currently stand measures up with their past. As for hard work…if it were just about hard work, success (or wealth in your world) would have come about a long time ago, since the master, and society demanded working hard in general, to build America’s wealth to begin with. It’s not about who works the hardest, it’s about individuals being rewarded fairly and appropriately for their hard work and for them to be able to share the wealth that comes from the fruits of the labor. Slaves worked hard. There has to be something of substance that comes with working hard. That is why many rich elitist hire people do work hard for them. Working hard is mainly valuable to poor people who work two jobs just to make ends meet.